Larger Than Life

(Good guys led by General Dr David Morrison.)

Here's an update on what I've been doing online in recent days. For quite some time now I've been posting comments on the Facebook page of the excellent website http://www.2012hoax.org/ . This is a site that was started by Bill Hudson - aka "astrogeek" - with the specific purpose of debunking the 2012 "Doomsday" nonsense because quite a few people, many of whom are children or teenagers are scared witless by this rubbish, even to the point of suicide in some cases. So Bill started the site in order to try to do something about it.

Since it started in January 2009 it has proved a great success, with many people visiting to get the scientific facts and many have thankfully been re-assured as a result. The site has also attracted the support and visits of many well-known scientists, such as Brian Cox, Neil deGrasse Tyson and David Morrison, to mention just a few.

As for the fictional planet Nibiru, this has often become tied in to the 2012 Doomsday predictions by the doom peddlars and it is frequently discussed over on the website and on the Facebook page. Here's a very good article on the website about it.

Now to the actual subject of this thread, "The Battle of Nibiru." In October last year Dr David Morrison of NASA uploaded the following video to Youtube, after he had received an e-mail from a 12 year-old girl saying she and her classmates were scared by it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TIy-t48uU0

Since it was uploaded, the video has attracted masses of comments ((3,553 as I write and counting) and seems to have become the Clapham Junction of Youtube Nibiru arguments. Plenty of Nibiru fans on there, failing to present any actual evidence as usual and I think at least half the population of 2012hoax.org is on there as well. And doing some sterling work as well I might add.

Over the last few days I've made quite a number of comments as well, with my Youtube handle @bugbait42 and will quite likely make more. If anyone else reading this thread fancies joining the party on YT in helping to present the facts, please dive in. Of course, it's unlikely you'll get any sensible replies from the Nibiruists, but at least you'll be able to find out what it's like being a "government-paid shill" and maybe earn enough to buy the missus a new washing machine or something.

By the way, Youtube comments isn't the best place for debates, because of the 500 character limit for each comment, you can't put direct links and the comments often appear out of sequence, even in "sort by thread" mode, (which is still the best way to view them incidentally.)

As you will see by reading the comments, the Nibiruists frequently avoid answering legitimate scientific questions put to them, such as "what are the RA/DEC co-ordinates for Nibiru?" Many of their comments consist of going off at a tangent and accusing us all of being paid debunkers working for "The Government" (not certain which one) and / or NASA.

Actually though it doesn't really matter that the woos either ignore the questions or give ridiculous answers, because the whole point of this exercise is to show those who are scared by this Nibiru tripe that the woos are full of BS and with just about every comment they make, or question they ignore, they score an own goal anyway.

And the great thing about the comments being under a video uploaded by David is we know the comments won't get deleted by the uploader, as sometimes happens with comments presenting scientific facts under a video uploaded by a woo.

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

Nice site, nice forum. More than about 'Nibiru' though - it seems it
would have to be:

2012hoax.org / "Why we made this site":

“One of us regularly visits local school classrooms, giving an astronomy talk
and Q&A session, and has been doing this for 5th and 8th grade classrooms for
about three years. Beginning in 2008, a shift in the nature of the questions was
noticed over the year before. Instead of the classic "What would happen if you
fell into a black hole?" the questions are pointing more towards "What's really
going to happen in 2012?" and "Somebody told me a planet is going to hit us
in 2012". When the students were asked where they had heard this
information, the top two sources named
were Yahoo! Answers and YouTube”

All things 'Nibiru' aside, (as they're fictitious creations anyway) - my concerns
run more towards those threats we do face, economic collapse/war topping the list
quite handily.

Certainly - those things real and worthy preparation as well the proper mindset, though
not worth anyone becoming a basket-case over.

Here's the thing, Smersh; I suppose one could sweat and wring their hands in worry
about 'what may happen, any given date', but worry accomplishes nothing, only works as
a negative.

What the Mayans' conceived for the date 12-21-2012 cannot be a 'known' - there being high
probability they'd meant this as 'just an end to a mere cycle', (they had many). . .

I have to think they'd merely chosen the date because it was so far-off in the future they didn't
feel the need transcribing a calendar upon an endless series of stone tablets in cuneiform

Goodness - can one imagine the effort that took?

What does it matter what the Mayan's thought anyway? After all, the thing needn't become
a self-fulfilling prophecy. In that, I laud the efforts 2012hoax.org, as well, your participation.

In a final word, I'd just say proceed carefully with guidance. The threats of some of the wildest
imaginings possible being not one-and-the-same threats realized.

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

I know that not everyone likes to go on Facebook (in fact neither did I until relatively recently) but here's the link to the 2012hoax.org page there anyway. Lot's of people who are scared by the 2012 / Nibiru etc bullshit go on there and it gets lots of activity (possibly more than the forum on the website actually, not sure, but so far I haven't signed up for the forum and spend all my time on the FB page.)

http://www.facebook.com/2012hoax

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

ROFL. . .

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

I think thats what really happened!

My understanding is that the date signifies the end of the cycle where the planet earth and its axis aligns with the centre of the galaxy. We are suppose to start at the beginning again afterwards.

I will bet anyone in the world as much money as they want that the world will survive. Those who think it will end please line up and put your money on the table.

_________________
In time all will be revealed.

Found on the NASA website...

The Great 2012 Doomsday Scare

This guest article on 2012 was written by E. C. Krupp, Director of Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles and is reprinted with permission from Sky & Telescope Magazine. The publisher and the author reserve all rights. All opinions are the author's own.

The year 2012 is acting like a badly behaved celebrity. Frightful rumors and gossip are spreading. Already more than a half dozen books are marketing, to eager fans, astronomical fears about 2012 End Times. Opening in theaters on Friday, Nov. 13, will be 2012, a $200-million disaster movie that seems designed to break all records for disaster spectacles -- with cracking continents, plunging asteroids, burning cities, and a tsunami throwing an aircraft carrier through the White House. The movie's ominous slogan: "Find out the truth." Two other major movies about the 2012 doomsday are also reported to be in the works.

Anyone who cruises the internet or all-night talk radio knows why. The ancient Maya of Mexico and Guatemala kept a calendar that is about to roll up the red carpet of time, swing the solar system into transcendental alignment with the heart of the Milky Way, and turn Earth into a bowling pin for a rogue planet heading down our alley for a strike.

None of it is true. People you know, however, are likely becoming a bit afraid that modern astronomy and Maya secrets are indeed conspiring to bring our doom. If people know you’re an astronomer, they will soon be asking you all about it.

Here is what you need to know.

Birth of a Notion
We've had similar scares in the recent past, but none quite like this. The last time the world got all worked up over the mystical turning of a calendar was the false Millennium of Jan. 1, 2000. Never mind the actual Y2K computer-date bug. True-believer authors (and their imitators) published scary and/or hopeful books about the moment's prophetic potential to catch an immense cosmic wave and change everything for either good or ill. Borrowing a forecast from Nostradamus, the 16th-century French riddler, author Charles Berlitz predicted catastrophe in his 1981 book Doomsday 1999. Berlitz (fresh off books on Atlantis and the Bermuda Triangle), warned that 1999 could inflict flood, famine, pollution and a shift of Earth's magnetic poles. He also spotlighted the planetary alignment of May 5, 2000, and warned that it could bring solar flares, severe earthquakes, "land changes" and "seismic explosions."

In the 1990s an entire "Earth Changes" movement swelled into being as the end of the century neared, with all sorts of Millennial expectations -- earthquakes, plagues, polar axis shifts, continents sliding into the sea, Atlantis rising and more. In England, the Sun tabloid predicted a "marvelous millennium of joy, peace, prosperity."

When Jan. 1, 2000, came and went with nothing worse than ski-lift passes printing the date as 1900, the focus shifted to "5/5/2000" several months later. Most believers in the power of planetary alignments forgot the failure of earlier lineups to induce disaster. The "Jupiter Effect" cataclysm predicted for March 10, 1982 (named for the 1974 book about it by John Gribbin and Stephen Plagemann) commanded headlines but never materialized.

Throughout history, end-of-the-world movements missing their mark number in the "hundreds of thousands at the very least, says Richard Landes, historian at Boston University and director of its Center for Millennial Studies. But people eager for the world to end are not to be denied, and this time, of course, all will be different.

The Rollover
What exactly is the Maya calendar about to do? On Dec. 21, 2012, it will display the equivalent of a string of zeros, like the odometer turning over on your car, with the close of something like a millennium. In Maya calendrics, however, it's not the end of a thousand years. It's the end of Baktun 13. The Maya calendar was based on multiple cycles of time, and the baktun was one of them. A baktun is 144,000 days: a little more than 394 years.

Scholars have deciphered how the Maya calendar worked from historical texts and ancient inscriptions, and they have accurately correlated so-called Maya Long Count dates with the equivalent dates in our calendar. Just as we number our years counting from a historically and culturally significant event (the presumed birth year of Christ), Maya times were numbered from a date endowed with religious and cosmic significance: the creation date of the present world order. A Long Count date is the tally of days from that mythic startup. Most experts think the start point corresponds to Aug. 11, 3114 B.C.

Most of the Maya calendar intervals accumulate as multiples of 20. An interval of 7,200 days (360 × 20) was known as a katun. It takes 20 katuns to complete a baktun (20 × 7,200 = 144,000 days). Although some ancient inscriptions turn 13 baktuns into an important reset milestone, others imply that the calendar simply keeps running. For instance, it takes 20 baktuns to make a pictun.

No one paid much attention to the end of Baktun 13 until fairly recently. In 1975 Frank Waters, a romantic and speculative author, devoted a brief section to the subject in his book Mexico Mystique. He identified the 13-baktun interval as a "Mayan Great Cycle," overestimated its duration as 5,200 years, and equated five such cycles with five legendary eras, each of which ends in the world’s destruction and rebirth. There is no genuine Maya tradition behind any of this.

Waters also miscalculated the date when the calendar would supposedly pull down the shades. "The end of the Great Cycle . . . will occur Dec. 24, 2011 A.D.," he announced, when the world "will be destroyed by catastrophic earthquakes." Exact date aside, the doomsday ball was now rolling.

Another book in 1975 also spotlighted the Maya calendric roundup. Dennis and Terence McKenna discussed it in The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching. That book at least got the Baktun-13 end date right: Dec. 21, 2012. It also noted that the date is the winter solstice, when the Sun will be "in the constellation Sagittarius, only about 3 degrees from the Galactic Center, which, also coincidentally, is within 2 degrees of the ecliptic." The McKennas continued, "Because the winter solstice node is precessing, it is moving closer and closer to the point on the ecliptic where it will eclipse the galactic center." In reality this event will never happen, but it hardly matters. The McKennas linked the whole arrangement with the concept of renewal and called 2012 a moment of "potential transformative opportunity."

Broader interest in 2012 caught on beginning in 1987. In The Mayan Factor: Path Beyond Technology, José Argüelles (an "artist, poet, and visionary historian" according to the dust jacket) linked the 13-baktun period with an impalpable "beam" from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. According to Argüelles, the Maya knew when we entered this beam and when we would leave it, and set their 13-baktun cycle to mark our passage through it accordingly. The beam, he asserted, operates as "invisible galactic life threads" that link people, the planet, the Sun, and the center of the Galaxy. Neither Maya tradition nor modern astronomy supports a belief in any such beam. It stemmed instead from Argüelles’s personal philosophy, which emphasizes "the principle of harmonic resonance." Argüelles also concluded that the planets are "orbiting harmonic gyroscopes" that “play a role in the coordination of the beam," which advances the development of anything with DNA. The year 2012, therefore, will bring a rosy version of the apocalypse.

If this sounds a bit familiar, you're right. In 1987 Argüelles and his followers predicted, with worldwide fanfare, that Aug. 16–17 of that year would bring a Maya-Galactic "Harmonic Convergence." That event turned into a global phenomenon, with thousands gathering at Earth’s “acupuncture points” to create a "synchronized and unified bio-electromagnetic collective battery." Unfortunately, the date passed with nothing more than colorful newspaper stories and a Doonesbury satire. (A character explains earnestly that that the alignment could bring either "mass unification of divine and earth-plane selves," or perhaps nuclear annihilation. "Either way there will probably be a crafts fair.")

Galactic Guessing Games
Fast-forward to 1995. That year John Major Jenkins packaged several of these themes into Maya Cosmogenesis 2012. According to Jenkins, the winter-solstice point and the centerline of the Galaxy will line up exactly on Dec. 21. Arguing that this motivated the Maya to contrive the calendar to end on that date, Jenkins concludes that it will be "a tremendous transformation and opportunity for spiritual growth, a transition from one world age to another."

In fact, astronomy cannot pinpoint such a "galactic alignment" to within a year, much less a day. The alignment depends on the rather arbitrary modern definition of the galactic equator, and/or the visual appearance of the Milky Way. There is no precise definition of the Milky Way's edges -- they are very vague and depend on the clarity of your view. (Jenkins says that he personally established the Milky Way’s edges by viewing it from 11,000 feet, far above anywhere the Maya lived.) So to give a precise visual position for its centerline is not meaningful.

Jenkins did acknowledge that the winter-solstice Sun actually crosses the center of the Milky Way anytime between 1980 and 2016. Elsewhere he expands this approach zone to a 900-year period, and settles for an imprecise alignment to which Dec. 21, 2012, is arbitrarily and circularly assigned. Real astronomy does not support any match between the Baktun-13 end date and a galactic alignment. The advocates both admit and ignore this discrepancy.

It's almost a sidelight that the winter-solstice sun will never actually "eclipse" the galaxy's true center, the pointlike radio source marking the Milky Way's central black hole. Moreover, the winter-solstice sun won’t even pass closest to it on the sky for another 200 years. What did the Maya themselves think about End Times? There is no evidence that they saw the calendar and a world age ending in either transcendence or catastrophe on December 21, 2012. Some Maya Long Count texts refer to dates many baktuns past 13 and even into the next pictun and beyond. For instance, an inscription commissioned in the 7th century A.D. by King Pacal of Palenque predicts that an anniversary of his accession would be commemorated on Oct. 15, 4772.

In all of the Long Count texts discovered, transcribed, and translated, only one mentions the key date in 2012: Monument 6 at Tortuguero, a Maya site in the Mexican state of Tabasco. The text is damaged, but what remains does not imply the end of time.

The Secret NASA Conspiracy
Some advocates for the 2012 catastrophe say that what will actually cause the devastation is an alignment of planets. There is no planet alignment on the winter solstice in 2012. Nonetheless, advocates of doom connect the fictional alignment to astrological predictions or groundless claims about a reversal of Earth's magnetic field and unprecedented solar storms. Many internet postings and guests on all-night apocalyptic radio have elaborated on these themes.

In particular, several threads of irrational thought have created an internet phantom, the secret planet Nibiru. It's the bowling ball, and Earth is the pin. There is no such planet, though it is often equated with Eris, a plutoid orbiting safely and permanently beyond Pluto. Some insist, however, that a NASA conspiracy is in play and that Nibiru, looming in on the approach, can already be seen in broad daylight from the Southern Hemisphere. It was supposed to become visible from the Northern Hemisphere, too, by last May, but like a fickle blind date, it stood up those awaiting it.

Others on the Web, confused about the supposed alignment of the winter-solstice sun with the Milky Way's center, have declared that the Sun is now plummeting to the Milky Way’s center and dragging Earth with it. The predicted result? Earth’s polar axis will shift. Most of what's claimed for 2012 relies on wishful thinking, wild pseudoscientific folly, ignorance of astronomy, and a level of paranoia worthy of Night of the Living Dead.

So maybe the Maya were on to us after all. The clock is ticking. And it’s the end of the world as we know it.



E.C. Krupp, a Sky & Telescope contributing editor, is Director of Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles.

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
Adding lanes to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to solve obesity...
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

AngelTV:

“I will bet anyone in the world as much money as they want that the world will
survive. Those who think it will end please line up and put your money on the table”

Sucker's bet. If you bet the world will end (and it does), how do you collect?

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

FYI - If anyone wishes to keep track of any of the several "Battle of Nibiru" threads I've started on various boards, here's all the links:

http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index. ... ay&start=0

http://www.thespaceport.us/forum/topic/ ... of-nibiru/

http://armageddononline.org/forums/thre ... post486353

http://www.realityuncovered.net/forum/v ... f=3&t=2185

http://ufo-blog.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330141637/0#0

Above UFO-Blog.com thread was also mirrored by DrDil here:

http://ufo-blog.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330177263/1#1


Two or three of the threads have had quite a few posts as I write, and the one at AO seems to be getting a little heated right now ...

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

Crikies! You do get around, don't you?!?

Smersh:

“Two or three of the threads have had quite a few posts as I
write, and the one at AO seems to be getting a little heated right now ...”

I'd say.

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Hahahaha... just threw a little petrol on the fire....

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
Adding lanes to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to solve obesity...
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

Cheers Dutchie.

Crikey, don't they have moderators at AO any more?

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

Yeah, the language used there sure (shure?!?) makes you wonder about it.....

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
Adding lanes to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to solve obesity...
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

Pffft. I'm sure to be jumped o'er this but here goes:

I don't think Zachariah Sitchin was an idiot. He offered theories as he was a theoretician.
As theory goes, there's nothing wrong with developing theory 'what a thing of historical
recount may have meant' (or) observing [a] phenomena, pattern recognition trying to
determine what a thing could mean - - it's good mental exercise everyone ought to practice.

The whole thing about '2012' though - as I see it, pedantic argument upon these trivial points
of contention when humanity faces real threats (see last post here), forcing that which is
insignificant to some kind of make-believe significance.

IOW, it becomes an ARGUMENT BY DISTRACTION.

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

No he was certainly no idiot, but that doesn't mean he was right. Rightly or wrongly he did the translation as he saw it. It was your Nancy Lieders and thousands of buffoons / blatant hoaxers with no knowledge of astronomy who developed the Nibiru / Planet X legend into the vast stream of BS we see today.

I'll give the same link here as I gave over at AO, and about which a certain member there threw all his toys out of the pram:

http://sitchiniswrong.com

The same website has an analysis of the Sumerian seal in this pdf file: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

Developing theories is OK and can indeed be a good training of the mind, but that only is true as long as you keep your self-developed theories to yourself. The moment you bring them out into this world, you de facto send out a challenge to anyone to attack your ideas. Einstein's theory of relativity is STILL only a theory - it hasn't been proven right, but neither has it been proven wrong. Still, there is a difference between Sitchin and Einstein. Sitchin comes to his theories based on assumptions and interpretations, whereas Einstein developed his theory from clear logic and supporting facts and observations.

And yes, all too often ppl tend to "hi-jack" theories when they have a spectacular element to them. Don't tell me that Sitchin wasn't aware of this. He KNEW that ppl might regard his musings not to be theory but fact.


Oh and BTW, I just added that "idiot" comment to add fuel and heat to the discussion.

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
Adding lanes to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to solve obesity...
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

Oh I agree. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "rightly or wrongly" about Sitchin in my answer to Joe. I don't for one moment believe that Sitchin interpreted the Sumerian seal correctly and the difference between him and Einstein is that Einstein's theories have been very extensively peer reviewed in a disciplined, scientific manner whereas Sitchin has failed spectacularly to be agreed with by qualified scholars of Sumerian writings. The only "successful peer review" Sitchin has had is from those who have not approached the task in a disciplined, scientific manner, but just straight-forwardly believed him without any research at all, largely driven by snake-oil salesmen out to make a fast buck out of people's fascination with gloom and doom.



Aye, I just saw that before coming here to make this post. Those who have been members there for long enough to remember are now seeing their worst nightmare coming back to haunt them.

_________________
Pobody's nerfect

Dutchie:

“Developing theories is OK and can indeed be a good training of the mind, but that
only is true as long as you keep your self-developed theories to yourself. The moment you
bring them out into this world, you de facto send out a challenge to anyone to attack your
ideas. Einstein's theory of relativity is STILL only a theory - it hasn't been proven right, but
neither has it been proven wrong. Still, there is a difference between Sitchin and Einstein.
Sitchin comes to his theories based on assumptions and interpretations, whereas Einstein
developed his theory from clear logic and supporting facts and observations.

And yes, all too often ppl tend to "hi-jack" theories when they have a spectacular element
to them. Don't tell me that Sitchin wasn't aware of this. He KNEW that ppl might regard his
musings not to be theory but fact”

And:

Smersh:

“Oh I agree. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "rightly or wrongly" about Sitchin in my
answer to Joe. I don't for one moment believe that Sitchin interpreted the Sumerian seal
correctly and the difference between him and Einstein is that Einstein's theories have been
very extensively peer reviewed in a disciplined, scientific manner whereas Sitchin has failed
spectacularly to be agreed with by qualified scholars of Sumerian writings. The only "successful
peer review" Sitchin has had is from those who have not approached the task in a disciplined,
scientific manner, but just straight-forwardly believed him without any research at all, largely
driven by snake-oil salesmen out to make a fast buck out of people's fascination with gloom
and doom”

Basically I think its' just Sitchin misapplied when we're better to concern ourselves with
ends we're helping create. That's all.

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

....this "Bob" character on AO really isn't the friendly type of guy, isn't he? Jeez...

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
Adding lanes to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to solve obesity...
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

It's always fun 'till the torches & pitchforks come out, and someone loses an eye.

Joe (Bigsky770)

_________________
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx