Larger Than Life

In another thread dutchie said


And i thought it was a good topic, vis,

"Why Sovereigns are infinitely better than Presidents".

Here is my answer to his comment in the form of a (probably boring) theory.

I quite cheerfully say "God save the Queen" and mean "Support of a social good". It is a rote form, like much else in a society. It no longer means what it says, instead it means "1600 years of social cohesion and history isn't going to stumble now merely because of wordplay".

Your Queen is very very good for you, and you should hope everything , all things, conspire to save her.. Don't think so?.

Well, the only other option is to follow the poor Americans, French, Italians, Russians et al , who were forced to give up their Sovereign , by way of circumstance * and now suffer a 4 or 5 yearly self hate session to find a substitute.
A childish replacement for a Sovereign, a partisan filthy POLITICIAN as "President", what a made up concept that is, everyone hates and mistrusts the breed "Politician", but lots of countries are lead by one. YUCK ! ! ! !.
The election of the party figurehead is followed by more than half of them ABSOLUTELY HATING the each and every act of their government ** for the next 4 or 5 years. And it is their doom now, forever!. They will never be the happy nations ours are, never ever. FOREVER they are doomed to hate one another every 4 years. ( I personally have always thought we ought to go do something to help them . . but after all, we have better things to do, we ought to help Africa first. )

What happens when it is time for us to change our head of state?. Their child steps up to the onerous job and gives the rest of their life to us . And all of society will have a socially bonding funeral for someone they can all *** respect, someone in both our cases who has lived through all our most important history, as a symbol of our peoples. Then, a real symbol of continuity steps up, and swears their life into our service, and so on forever. Parliamentarians can fight and squabble on any topic for us, reach their decisions and then the symbol of our whole people is approached and accepts the decision, instantly washing away the hatred. The whole act of governance is completely different in the two systems.

The US president has a veto over the acts of his peoples' Parliaments. How is that good?. It merely encourages the opposition party to put forward watered down bills, and the government party to put forward divisive bills, more institutionalized hate.

Whereas in our system, neither party would dare put forward a really divisive bill for the Sovereign to sign into law. If She refused ( say they put forward some law She knew, because of social unrest, would result in civil war, it has happened in both our countries you know. ) to sign, constitutional chaos.

And we both know, don't we, our gracious Sovereigns would protect us if they had to. So Parliament here, is always aware that it may not write a hate act into law. in the USA, well, we just got the Patriot act, didn't we, and while we have had slightly similar acts in both our countries, they didn't go half as far, merely because, I say,

"God save the Queen!".

* Circumstance usually being "Upper class refused to listen to reason" not, "King George will come and take away our freedom".

** Look at French and American political reporting. They don't even try to address the issues, every Issue is really "WE HATE THE PRESIDENT AND EVERYTHING HE STANDS FOR".

*** Well, everyone can except the people who think somehow us all having a head of state infringes on their rights. We can ignore them mostly, like you ignore the child next door, beating on his tin drum.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Rule by monarchy? Nah. Its’ not better. True - for the short term, things may seem better for you, but you could just as easily wind-up with a malevolent ruler as a benevolent one.

Granted - in America, we may not be showing our best face politically at this time, given the problems we are beset with - I know I gripe quite a bit about the fact that we’ve devolved into a kleptocracy ’an all, but truth of the matter is, we’re still the best form of governance known.

That we possess a style of governance which maintains a president doing his best to display to the populace all the ways things have improved (though we know they haven‘t) - THAT, is power, my friend. Power through fear so real, you can smell it. This coming November isn’t even so much a matter of whom to vote for, as much as whom to vote out, and of this they are keenly aware.

Our biggest problem at the moment? That the American people figure it out as one mind. Arriving at this conclusion, we could be unstoppable. All that’s necessary is putting together an otherwise fractious coalition, and we could become a force to be reckoned with.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

My dear friend, Apteryx (sounds like Asterix, for some reason...), you obviously don't know about our Royalty and the way they came to power in our humble little country...

In truth and essence, it was just a French count (of Orange) who came to the Nether Lands and said: "Rrrright you suns of dutch peasaaants... I fart in your general directioon and now your country is mine. Thank you."
And then he just decided to stay around. And they still are. And the queenie is now one of the top 5 richest women in the world. Sucking dry the bone and marrow of the ever endeavored dutchies, who never knew what hit them, because they were too busy selling of slaves to the USA....

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My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
"How ironic... You eat vegetarian and speak baloney" -- Bucky Catt
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

Addams? Nixon? Reagan? Bush? Bush II?

We ( the British People and their Commonwealth. ) HAVE had slightly less than perfect ones. We chop their heads off if they won't listen to reason, once we looked around the pool of "kings" and imported a Dutchman, he was a jolly good trade up!. Just two Sovereigns ago, we had one that wasn't quite the thing, don't you know, we wouldn't let him take the Crown, but look, his Brother was less than happy with the prospect, but, he was KINGLY, and took his place, served us like a trooper, it took so much out of his family life, and he died young, but served us all his days, "Gods save his memory" *.

That link of yours, appears to blame Obama for the tea-party crazies. It isn't Obamas fault he was born half African, so he isn't to "blame" for the tea-crazies. Their entire "movement' is entirely about Obama being "black".

They simply are trying to MAKE him a failure by screaming and throwing their toys out of the cot. Because he is black. They can't stand the idea of the AMERICAN ideals being actually true, and that anyone can be President, and do pretty much a reasonable job ( as good as anyone can do at such a terminally flawed position )

Actually, the tea party idea is exactly what my post is about. Presidents will always face tea-party hatred, Kings never do.

Kings good, Presidents bad, q.e.d.


* The Good King George VI.
I would go follow at his feet like a dog this minute, if I could, to help him, or to just let him know how we honoured his sacrifice for us.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Well, maybe some of that is right, and I bow to your local knowledge, but, how are they "sucking dry" the good Dutchmen?.

Do you know how much it costs to run a presidential election every 4 years?. This is an important point, just the people stopping their jobs and driving down to vote probably costs the economy a billion dollars each time.
Then, on top of that, you have to pay the President?, his household?, his guards ( And he will need 10 times the guards because half the people hate him, remember.) his secretaries? his arse kissers?. And when he is chucked out of office, still guards, and secretaries, for life. America has 5 or so being protected at any one time.

On the other hand, with a Queen, the arse kissers at least, we know, do it for free. So do the guards in some cases. From love. And Sovereigns generally make their own successors, and we get lots of cool baby photos.

Not only are they better, Sovereigns are CHEAPER than Presidents. When you look at tourism and press coverage, they probably MAKE money for their country.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Oh, but in the UK the cost per capita are far less than in the Netherlands..

And we STILL have a government, with ministers, a PM, a house of commons etcetera.

So I say, bring out the guillotine and...

No, I'm not saying THAT!, the secret service may be reading this...

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
"How ironic... You eat vegetarian and speak baloney" -- Bucky Catt
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

How is lopping-off someones’ head better? Kudos tho that he was a good ruler in your eyes.



Your comment RE: ‘Race Hatred’ duly noted, considered & forgiven you. I choose to forgive for the fact you are not HERE. I cannot know what news-services you subscribe, (how they decide to report the news, or what bent to apply same). You see, we suffer the same fate in this way here in America, (often) the news reported of events far abroad is so horribly tainted, it can take most of my time just combing the ‘net looking for the true story, those details MSM leaves unreported. That said, I’ll step-back from this discussion until you should view this & this, please carefully read and consider threads both here & here.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Ok, I read the two first links. I see that this act of the government deeply upsets you, and withdraw from further upsetting you by making my opinion on the subject known. It really isn't a topic you and I could talk about and me be comfortable, because I wouldn't know when I was upsetting you.

And I don't like upsetting my friends. I understand why you offered me forgiveness mate, and appreciate the thought.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Oh heavens. . . Not at all, Apteryx. We're all about discussion here. This is the reason this site was created! Your personal opinions are yours, you shall always have them. If I can convince you otherwise, cool. If you can make me see your POV, cool too!

(Read as: THIS IS NOT A BLOG. Its' a forum. You and I are on equal footing here). The only exceptions to the aforementioned may be found HERE. You see, had you been a racist spouting all of that nonsense, I would have no choice but to call you on that. That you’re not, well, that’s a credit to your favour.

Other forums may tolerate that type of discourse, we don’t.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

I wasn't saying anything racist about anyone, or at least that wasn't my intent at all, if it seemed that way. I was doing the opposite in fact, I was pointing out some observed racism in a group movement. (Edit to add As I made no mention at all of the tea-party peoples races, nor could have because they are themselves lots of races, it is impossible to call what I said racist. Saying someone is racist can't be countermanded by an accusation of racism can it. )

I was pointing out that in my opinion, ( and not at all mine alone, it is pretty much a standard reaction everywhere in the world for anyone who has watched/listened to five minutes of any of the main speeches at one of the tea-parties ) the guiding motive of the people who organised that movement, was racism.
They want to destroy every effort the black President does, so a black President can never be elected again.

Other people are around them, probably not racist, just there for the TV coverage, of course.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Of course, racism exists. To my undying sadness, yes. I cannot even discount the possibility that some within the Tea-party movement harbour some racist tendencies. Unfortunately, they could be anyone (or) everywhere. That said, I haven't met a Tea-partier yet that voiced anything concerning race in RE: Pres. Barack H. Obama. Not one.

If you read that election thread carefully, you may be surprised - You see, I was planning on voting for him! Still as a senator tho in the running - when he signed the TARP, along with Biden, McCain, Bush approved - (Palin would have signed-on too, she stated so, but not being a member of the legislature she could not) - I then decided to go Libertarian.

So, we wait for November. The only difference is, (as stated before), I ain't voting for anyone. It'll be a 'vote out', not a 'vote in'. Perhaps then? They will get the message.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Oh well. You know that I have not posted in many of the political threads, it isn't the fact that I don't have an opinion, but that, none of the threads have been about NZ politics.

I don't read about US politics when I still have not worked my way through even the "Greatest photos of the Universe" thread. I did think though, I had seen where you said you had been a Democrat voter, so I thought you were.
When I read your post with the links in, I only looked at the two links to the acts of your Parliaments. As soon as I saw that it was acts of P that you were concerned about, I thought, well, no point worrying him with my opinion about that, it is HIS parliament after all. I didn't do more than open the other links mate, I could see straight away they were political. One has "tea party" on the top, and I just dismissed it out of hand because of that.

A link to the ORIGINAL tea party, I would dismiss also. I hate the entire line of approach.

It seems to me like people going down to vote, hoping to get their guys in, they don't, so they advocate not paying their taxes because " they rob us ".

How a democracy ACTUALLY works is just exactly like you say, you vote, one group gets in for a while, both parties' constituents pay their taxes without complaint, then you have another vote, like you say, to see who gets thrown out, or if they have accurately gaged the populations ( majority thereof, NOT just the ones prepared to shout loud enough ) wishes, they get given another chance to hang themselves.
This tea party approach however, the first time, and now this present lot, is nothing short of bullying "You won so we won't pay our taxes because your party isn't our party and doesn't do what we want".

I honestly think the whole thing is a bad bad bad thing for my friends the Americans, and that feeling has nothing in the least to do with which party is involved in organizing it, or even , if as is claimed ( and I really don't believe for a second ) it wasn't the right wing or left wing doing it but unaligned people doing it.

It quite honestly frightens me to see. I feel as if any minute now the US could be are going the way of Yugoslavia. Social decay.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Just a few pointers, Apteryx:

• We don't have a Parliament. We have a Congress & a Senate. I know, I know - - "You say toma-to, I say tomat-o". . . Smersh & Dutchie's systems utilize Parliaments.
• There are three parts comprising American gov't. The Executive, Legislative & Judicial branches within helping provide (under normal circumstance) a system of 'checks and balances', the way the gov't relates' the people (implement of laws, collection of taxes, yah know. . .)
• We're not actually a democracy. We're a Federal Republic, though we do embrace some democratic principles. a lotta people get that wrong, so don't worry.

Here's a coupla good primers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_go ... ted_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_o ... ted_States

Towards getting back on point, as to monarchies being the best, I still contest; You get a bad one, you’re in it for life. . .Either his or yours. At least we have term limits to look forward to. As for Tea Partiers’ bullying, no - Go back to the original Declaration of Independence; Our gov’t derives it’s consent the governed. The reason the Tea Party began this time was because our government didn’t listen.

Question: What would a ratio of 300:1 against tell you?

As for going the way of Yugoslavia, I sincerely hope not - I just hope we can make it to elections before we collapse under the weight of debt our future generations may not have the ability to bear.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Also completely off topic..

The BBC World Service did a series on the radio "Opposing Obama", in which they interviewed visitors of a Tea Party gathering (forgot which state it was). The answers to the questions where either plain stupid or plain racist. It felt like the worst sewage of right wing thinking was poured over the listeners..

Plain stupid as in: Obama had his chance to set things right, to make a change and he didn't do it - in fact, there is NOTHING that Obama ever did that I liked.

And racist as in: what 'd you expect from a black man?!? Let's get real about it!

So, how can you say members of the Tea Party aren't motivated by racial arguments? That's sticking your head in the sand to say the least. The USA is FUBAR over the entire Bush period and you expect Obama to solve that overnight? And I mention these two arguments, because that is about all you ever hear from the TP members.

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
"How ironic... You eat vegetarian and speak baloney" -- Bucky Catt
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

When I said I have not met a Tea-Partier personally that displayed racist tendencies, I was being frankly honest. Aside from which, it is not an unknown here that MSM is taking its’ best shot at denigrating the credibility of the Tea Party movement. Why would they do that, You might ask? We are a free society, right? News gets reported fairly and accurately, right? Far abroad - I’m wondering how many of you have seen this?



Or perhaps read this?:



From: LINK

White House Communications Director Anita Dunn Explains why “media control” is so important:



More HERE

And HERE

Shortly thereafter, Anita Dunn stepped down as White House Communications Director. (But you already suspected as much, right?)

Of course, she had supposedly taken the job merely on the interim and had the ‘‘option’’ of quitting at the end of the year. For the uninitiated, the event may fall under that header ‘plausible deniability’. As for the point:



When we attempted to take Bush to task o’er this, THAT didn’t work. (he was a lame duck anyway as it was late in his final term this SHTF) though YES, the blame for this fiscal debacle falls squarely upon his shoulders, and I have always freely admitted that. Trying to get through to Obama that a debt of $14.3 trillion isn’t sustainable is like talking to air. Dutchie, (seriously) you know math - we can’t do it. No nation on earth could. When everyone was shouting “Yes! We Can!”, is that what they meant?!? Print ourselves into Weimar Republic hyperinflation (or) merely default?!?

Oh, sure - there’s so much more, though I don’t wish to beleaguer the points. What I’m saying in conclusion, You’re being sold the news. Question is, are you buying it?

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

My point is really the lack of patience that the republicans show. Was there ever a "coffee party" when Bush was president?

And the budget deficit was insolvable under Bush as well. Sometimes you need to invest to gain returns.

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
"How ironic... You eat vegetarian and speak baloney" -- Bucky Catt
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

And its' a point well taken, as Republicans are as much to blame for this fiscal debacle as any Democrat could be. Sarah Palin goes 'rogue?' Addressing a Tea Party convention?!?!? Puhleeeze. She was as much for signing the TARP as anyone of them. What they're attempting to do is co-opt the Tea Party movement as their own, and that won't - or at least shouldn't - stand.



Biden said it a little differently:



"We have to spend money to keep from going broke".

Whoa-kaaaayyyy. . .

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Look, don't take this the wrong way, but you do need something pointed out to you in detail.

We john foreigners don't rely on your press you know. We have at least hundreds, probably thousands, but certainly literally HUNDREDS of our reporters over there at any one time . I do really get sick of hearing this from Americans, and yet I understand perfectly well why you think we are reliant on your reporting. The truth is yours is such a big country, and so important, that you really know too little about how the rest of the world does business, and we know far too much about you, because of this same importance.

Your own news reporting is so juvenile, lowest common denominator, short attention span, and worst of all, so politically partisan in its approach, so how could you understand what standards we hold. We have three channels of US news reporting in this, a poorish household, but we don't rely on it for our news of the USA.
We have the BBC of course, every hour on the hour, also Channel Seven and some other one from Australia. we also have a German daily news programme in English, of 2 hours ( this is the one we mostly watch at news time, because, Germans are obsessed with facts, and representing them perfectly. ), Al Jezzera every morning at 8. ( also very good for utterly factual reporting ), once a week Japans main News programme ( mostly about Japan of course )in English, and ditto Chinas main state news, in English sub-titles, all "live" news.
.

Reporting was INVENTED outside your country, we know how to do it, mate. The BBC for instance, which New Zealand looks to first for factual reporting, if the BBC and an American report differ, it is cultural law here that the US report is factually wrong, we look no further. ( j/k ) Seriously though, the BBC is correct every time that the US report is wrong.

TODAY, right now, tiny New Zealand alone has probably got 20 reporters, print and radio and TV, roaming around the USA. Henry Paul, our top TV current affairs reporter went to the USA, and did a 2 hour live broadcast every day for two weeks leading up to the previous election. He came back worn out, because he was there working 20 hours a day, tracking facts. He had his own crew, his own sattilite feed, his own everything, no possible contamination by any US input. The man is fascinated by your society, and is a substantial "USA" booster every morning, he loved it there, he had a ball, and he said something like "Pretty much everyone involved in US politics is crazy one-eyed, they are so passionate about their politics it is like being with madmen, I wouldn't have missed it for the world".
His under-study bloke went and reported from a number of political meetings just a few weeks ago. He interviewed some people from Tea-party meetings, and filmed a couple, not selectively, and not the least unkindly. There were genuine people there I felt a kinship with.
They were a minority.
Three other companies had their own reporters there, asking questions, during the entire election cycle. That is only TV, there were dozens of paper reporters, man, we had 2 BLOGGERS that I know of that went there.
Paul's channel ( Our TV one, ) has permanent crew all year around in LA, Washington, New York and probably others too. We are a mere 10 hours flight time, it is nothing, mere commonplace, to see a report from somewhere in the US, and "crikey, wasn't he doing the breakfast show here yesterday?" we say.

We KNOW what goes on there, and not through any US parties filter. And it has been this way for at least 20 years.

So I can say, quite factually to you.

You must not tell us again that we don't know about the doings of your government. We do. Maybe you guys don't, as you have represented, and ok, I must accept you feel sure about this, but,

Our livelihoods depend on knowing the truth !.

Our businessmen know what happens THAT MORNING in your markets, your bigger state legislatures, and certainly your state parliaments. ( I use this term because I am damned if I am typing out three words where one means exactly the same thing. Parliament n. 1. A national representative body having legislative powers within the state. In exactly the same way you can factually use the terms administration, congress and senate for other peoples parliaments, they LITERALLY all mean the same thing, taken in context. )

Next time you see a White House press conference, have a listen to the accents asking the questions from the crowd. Usually the sensible ones are from German TV, or the Danes.

OK, now another point.

This present WORLD WIDE economic crisis is entirely the doing of Bush and the Republicans.

He had 8 years to reign in the "Making money is more important than sense" attitude of wallstreet, and instead, he prompted irrational spending and his government took away any sensible control of finance, gave the green light to irresponsible lending laws. The bad loans were made under his government, which did nothing to prevent them.
JUST LIKE REAGEN BEFORE HIM, with the exact same result.
He handed Obama a bankrupt economy.
( The same loans were illegal in the UK, Germany, and New Zealand, it is ILLEGAL to loan money to someone who can't re-pay it in our countries, the loans can be challenged in court man. No bank would do it. )

And now another point.

If Obamas administration had not done AT THE LEAST everything it did do, we would have been in a massive world wide depression, like in the thirties, because everyone in the world would have lost confidence with their economies, because the biggest economy was not being sensible. In fact, your country would have gone into a depression, and dragged us after it, the bad loans were US loans, your fault entirely.

If America had not done what it did, it would have been a rogue state, first setting fire to the world, then selfishly refusing to join in the bucket chain.

And really, we don't much care that it is against your 17th century rule book. You can't think that cause some people in the 17th century wrote a single page of words, you guys have no responsibility to your peers.

If that is the truth, stop trading with us, your philosophy is so important to you, you can't fairly enter into overseas trade. Economies no-longer work like 17th century words.

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I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy

Me said it.

Okay then. . .We agree to disagree.

That's fine.

Joe (Bigsky770)

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“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

- - Groucho Marx

Joe, you might not realise this, but Apteryx post is a pretty good reflection of how we feel about how things are developing in the USA. His views on foreign (as in non-USA) news coverage is IMO spot on. We don't swallow your news coverage, hell - we don't even read it! It's far too biased, especially blatantly stupid and right-wing orientated sources like Fox. I read the newspaper "Trouw" ("Loyalty", which was founded during WWII and started out as an anti-nazi propaganda newspaper), which has a brilliant reputation for its detailed and non-biased news coverage. Honestly, if you could read Dutch and you would compare this paper to some USA newspapers (I can read both and do a reasonable comparison), you'd have a hard time ever getting rid of your tomatoe coloured head ever again...

_________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.. (F. Zappa)
"How ironic... You eat vegetarian and speak baloney" -- Bucky Catt
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.